Re: new option for a very low cost WiFi client for IoT

[Gallymimu]

You can buy it at the same place as CERTIFIED CC3200 - nowhere _yet_ - as I said it's just matter of time. IMHO IoT spirit is in many low cost simple sensors (best fit for ESP8266 or something like that cheap module) and coordinator - for example $25 $20 (unit price) Vocore (Yes it HAS FCC and is available now) with standardized Linux system - both with same compiler (GCC) and Eclipse IDE if You want. Only toy i see here is very expensive TI thing...
One more thing i forgot to mention - i live in EU so i need CE certificate, not FCC - Vocore has both, what about TI?

What the heck is Vocore?   Why are we talking about CE now?    Oh, you are practicing misdirection by changing the topic and broadening the argument....   You don't seem listen and just want to WIN a forum argument.  Calling stuff from TI a toy just makes you sound like a kid not a product developer.  But let's not fight.  It's not a pissing contest and I'm sorry for letting it head that way.  I still think you are awesome either way and I have gotten some valuable insight from your comments Pablo.



Seriously though I do want to buy some of these as they might be a good fit lot's of projects like low end consumer and hobbyist products.  That ESP8266EX appears only to be a dev board which was disappointing and why I questioned it hoping you had actually seen a certified module like you claimed and could point us to.

Does anyone know off the top of their heads whether these perform well for low power applications (sleep current, wake time, wake-act-go back to sleep time).  Yeah I know I should probably do my own reading instead of asking, but there's already been some pretty thoughtful research by everyone here.

[pablo2048]

OMG - after all this you call me a kid and start to judge me - you clearly don't know what you are talking about, but i see your point - never mind...

Power consumption of the ESP8266 is discussed here http://www.esp8266.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=155

[George]

Apples and oranges. You wouldn't use a CC3200 in a product that will cost $20 on a shelf and you wouldn't use an ESP8266 for a $300 smart door lock with video and two way audio.

As I see it, things are pretty simple: need to toggle a switch or report sensor data over wifi? Use an ESP8266. Need to stream audio or video, process or store data, or do crypto? Use a CC3200. These are two very different solutions meant to solve very different problems.

[pablo2048]

Stream video with CC3200 (80MHz Cortex Mx CPU) seriously? Any example for that? If i need video and two way audio i prefer to use linux based thing instead of reinventing wheel writing tons of special code for Cortex low memory footprint CPU...

[George]

The CC3200 has a hardware accelerated camera input.

CC3200 vs Linux solution:
- Cheaper
- Lower power
- Smaller footprint
- Well documented
- Real time
- Cheaper to manufacture (QFN)
- Supported by TI
- Don't have to worry about Linux vulnerabilities, eg shellshock
- Don't need an in house Linux expert or consultant for board bringup

[Gallymimu]

OMG - after all this you call me a kid and start to judge me - you clearly don't know what you are talking about, but i see your point - never mind...

Power consumption of the ESP8266 is discussed here http://www.esp8266.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=155

Thanks for the link!  Power use in sleep mode on that thing is pretty bad.  So the ESP8266 might not be such a good choice for low power sensing or IoT applications where devices are battery powered.  For reference the link indicated a measurement of 350uA in sleep for the ESP8266 (who knows how accurate that is from a guy on a forum), while the CC3200 is 4uA in hibernate.

For reference TI power documentation http://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra462/swra462.pdf

Microchip RN171 is also 4uA during sleep, but that thing is even MORE expensive.

[pablo2048]

Thanks for the link!  Power use in sleep mode on that thing is pretty bad.  So the ESP8266 might not be such a good choice for low power sensing or IoT applications where devices are battery powered.  For reference the link indicated a measurement of 350uA in sleep for the ESP8266 (who knows how accurate that is from a guy on a forum), while the CC3200 is 4uA in hibernate.

Power consumption is 40uA (http://www.esp8266.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=155&start=30) , according to ESP8266 datasheet it has to be under 12uA (https://nurdspace.nl/images/e/e0/ESP8266_Specifications_English.pdf). Can You please measure REAL CC3200 power consumption and please don't forget to measure it with SPI flash...

Posted on: January 22, 2015, 06:14:43 06:14 - Automerged

The CC3200 has a hardware accelerated camera input.

CC3200 vs Linux solution:
- Cheaper
- Lower power
- Smaller footprint
- Well documented
- Real time
- Cheaper to manufacture (QFN)
- Supported by TI
- Don't have to worry about Linux vulnerabilities, eg shellshock
- Don't need an in house Linux expert or consultant for board bringup

This "Hardware accelerated camera" thing is nothing more than 8bit register clocked from PIXELSYNC camera output, connected with some FIFO and DMA - probably near the same as STM32F2/F4 DCIM so it needs RAM for frame buffer. CC3200 has "upto" 256kB RAM and this RAM is for data and code - program loads from SPI flash into RAM (http://www.ti.com/general/docs/datasheetdiagram.tsp?genericPartNumber=CC3200&diagramId=SWAS032E) and that is a problem - actually you can only use camera chip with hardware JPEG codec so transferring realtime video is IMHO just dream. You can only get still JPEG frames (WebSocket Camera example shows 6 JPEG images per second (sic)- http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/swru369a/swru369a.pdf).
CC3200 is cheaper? No way - here is my math:
CC3200 - $18.08 but you need some "vitamins" to get this thing to work - antenna, SPI flash, bunch of R's and C's and PCB - put this together, connect power and you are set
Vocore (http://vocore.io/) - $20 - connect power and you are set...
Lower power - that is right, but if we are talking about "$300 smart door lock with video and two way audio" it probably won't go from batteries.
Smaller footprint? - Complete VoCore 2.54x2.54cm - what is exactly size of COMPLETE CC3200 module with antenna and SPI?
Well documented? - I can't judge quality of Linux Open-WRT vs TI, but i learn from linux community more than from reading the documentation
Realtime? - what does this mean? TI-RTOS? Do i need this in our "$300 door bell" application?
Don't have to worry about Linux vulnerabilities, eg shellshock - yes, definitely, but do you really know about vulnerabilities inside TI closed source tcp stack, and ssl library? Does anybody check for example man in the middle attack against CC3200 SSL?
Don't need an in house Linux expert or consultant for board bringup - so you hire someone who learn CC3200 and write already written software instead? Really?
And there is more things about this CC3200:
1. only up to 8 TCP/UDP connections available in one time
2. only 2 SSL sockets (come on - SFTP need 2 - one for command and one for data...)
3. ipv6 ?
You guys don't get me wrong - CC3200 is probably good module, but in light of new chinese SOC it came too late...

[an007_rld]

Vocore (http://vocore.io/) - $20 - connect power and you are set...

If you need a decent module that run OpeWRT based on RT5350F try this vendor: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Serial-to-ethernet-module-serial-rj45-network-module-serial-to-tcp-ip/211069_798874966.html
...or this one: http://toplink-tech.en.alibaba.com/productgrouplist-218431933/Serial_To_WiFi_Module.html

You need to ask for memory upgrade to accommodate openwrt... It's similar with vocore but cheaper.
-an

[Gallymimu]

Couple of corrections on your statements Pablo
CC3200MOD doesn't need flash, it's included
CC3200MOD price is under $10 in volume according to Avnet (not officially released yet)

Vocore looks cool.


Something else that came while I was talking to one of our customers is antenna diversity.  I hadn't really thought about it before but it's an important feature if you want decent range out of your module.

[George]

You guys don't get me wrong - CC3200 is probably good module, but in light of new chinese SOC it came too late...

Totally agree, this chip was priced for a pre-ESP8266 world.

[pablo2048]

@Gallymimu - Oh, I thought that we are talking about CC3200 because your mentioned hibernate power consumption 4uA according to datasheet is for CC3200. For CC3200MOD is almost twice as big... So i need to correct my math as this:
CC3200MOD - $36.98 (www.ti.com/product/CC3200MOD/samplebuy - that's strange i think that i've seen price about $22...) still without antenna :-) . I can't compare volume prices because TI is not published yet and i didn't ask Vonger about Vocore volume price.
About antenna diversity - i'm not very familiar with this feature into deep - i thought that this is merely for AP's and not for stations. It probably need to add some LNA (??maybe??) so power consumption goes up. There may be some use case for this configuration, but IMHO very rare. Can you please provide some measurements with and without diversity antennas? (power consumption, range, data throughput, ...)

[an007_rld]

ESP nodemcu - An open-source firmware and development kit that helps you to prototype your IOT product within a few Lua script lines - available here: http://nodemcu.com/index_en.html
source code here: https://github.com/nodemcu/nodemcu-firmware

[titi]

Hi,
There is a some good tutorials for starting with ESP8266 in this site:
http://randomnerdtutorials.com/getting-started-with-esp8266-wifi-transceiver-review/

and a good application:
http://randomnerdtutorials.com/esp8266-web-server/

An other site:
http://rayshobby.net/first-impression-on-the-esp8266-serial-to-wifi-module/

Best regards.

[an007_rld]

Hi,
ESP8266 SDK reach V1.0.0 (Espressif willing to pay $ 200 to anyone who finds errors in SDK 1.0.0).
Check here (use google translate): http://esp8266.ru/esp8266-iot-sdk-v1-0-0-at-v0-22/

They publish also a very interesting article "Designing An Ultra Low Power Sensor Solution With ESP8266" here: https://github.com/EspressifSystems/low_power_voltage_measurement/wiki

Also if you want a more than decent solution running OpenWRT you can use A5-V11 (based on Ralink/MediaTek RT5350F, W9825G6EH-75 RAM (32 MB) RAM chip and 4 MB SPI ROM) here: http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/unbranded/a5-v11

The price is only $8.25 on AliExpress: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/LYNEW-Portable-Mini-Wireless-wifi-Router-3G-4G-Hotspot-Wifi-Hotspot-support-3G-USB-modems/32257312139.html

Hope helps,
-an

[iot]

I am very excited with the espressif wifi solution and tools for development.

I am sure that it will be a groundbreaking device in the IoT era. Currently, I am working in a project for home automation now using Ethernet, but in a second phase I will use the ESP8266.

If anyone wants to know about my project can visit the following link, here at sonsivri (http://www.sonsivri.to/forum/index.php?topic=59842.0)

Due to the importance of the ESP8266, I propose to have a dedicate thread for it. Ih that place, we can put anything related to it.

[Gallymimu]

I am very excited with the espressif wifi solution and tools for development.

I am sure that it will be a groundbreaking device in the IoT era. Currently, I am working in a project for home automation now using Ethernet, but in a second phase I will use the ESP8266.

If anyone wants to know about my project can visit the following link, here at sonsivri (http://www.sonsivri.to/forum/index.php?topic=59842.0)

Due to the importance of the ESP8266, I propose to have a dedicate thread for it. Ih that place, we can put anything related to it.

This is already a dedicated thread about the ESP8266 so are you just trying to increase your post count?

[iot]

Excuse me Gallyminu, but I am unable to find out a dedicated thread about ESP8266.

Doing some search in the site about ESP8266, you will find this post, another one in the hardware section, and some invitation requests. Nothing else.

By a dedicated thread I mean, a post where the only topic is related to the solution (not others solutions), all the links, documentation, tools, and sticky to the start. Just like the dedicated posts for some software tools.

About the post count, it is true that I am new to the site and I have a little posts, but I am trying to contribute a little in each one. If you any inconvenient with my posts, please send a direct message.

[pablo2048]

Using Arduino IDE with ESP8266 ... http://www.arduinesp.com/

[pablo2048]

IoT WiFi module comparison (including ESP8266, CC3000 and CC3200)
http://21stdigitalhome.blogspot.com/

[Nicolina1988]

Unofficial Development Kit for Espressif ESP8266

All-In-One for Win32

http://programs74.ru/udkew-en.html

[akacalo]

I think that the best is to go with a raspberry Pi. It has a lot of power an you can use a cheap pc wifi card. And I think it has most of certifications, because it is sell here in Europe

[motox]

I think that the best is to go with a raspberry Pi. It has a lot of power an you can use a cheap pc wifi card. And I think it has most of certifications, because it is sell here in Europe

You’re comparing a 45€ solution against 2.1€.

[akacalo]

You’re comparing a 45€ solution against 2.1€.

But I'm saying in term of power and the low cost instead other solutions. A raspberry Pi can do almost a computer can do with ease instead of pic which will be impossible or cost a lot to develop. I mean for a low cost easy iot client.
Sorry, if this doesn't helps

[pablo2048]

Sorry akacalo, but that sounds like totally bullshit to me. If we are talking about IoT world, then most of involved devices will be relative simple sensors or actors (and probably battery operated), where size and power consumption does matter. I've seen projects called IoT thermometer with RPi but IMHO only braindead can use 6x RPi only to measure temperature in his house... If You would - then use RPi as a SmartHome controller, but not as a sensor (even i prefer not centralized approach - for example like Souliss do).

[mike_au]

But I'm saying in term of power and the low cost instead other solutions. A raspberry Pi can do almost a computer can do with ease instead of pic which will be impossible or cost a lot to develop. I mean for a low cost easy iot client.

This might be an OK approach for someone who is just getting started in electronics and isn't willing to invest the time into doing it properly, or for a PoC on a short deadline, but beyond that no one is ever going to say "Well this $2 module would work well but what I would really like is if it could be much more complex, 8 times the size, 20 times the price, use a heap more power and need a bunch of extra software to function.". If you need the computing power of a RPi, then an 8266 was never even in your sights, if you can use an 8266 then a RPi would be ridiculous.